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Kieron · Joined: 02 Dec 2005 Posts: 909 Location: Edinburgh

I want to know what people think of this song. I had a chat with someone (female, that may or may not have a bearing on this) who said using the symbolism of rape in a song, as is done here, is a step too far, and perhaps was a bit too flippant in this instance for the horribleness that rape is. I said it's just a song, and rape is used as a metaphor for success, and it's really, in some ways, just praise for Will Oldham and other successful artists...

What's everyone else reckon?

Dav · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:

Well, the first time i read the lyrics i wasn't sure if it happened or not, mostly cos i didn't knew who Will Oldham was and also the language barrier is sometimes tricky for understanding the meaning behind things.
But i re-read/listen it more carefully and as you Kieron, i saw it at as a metaphor about music, not especially success, but the whole process of writing songs, sharing your privacy, exposing your feelings.
About Will Oldham, i just see the rape as a musical influence for Jeffrey., like a song stuck in your brain and you can't get it out.
The whole thing sounds like a dream, Will Oldham wearing the same glasses as he wears on stage...well it starts like a dream but end like a nightmare, obviously.
The story is also about success, or at least being an artist and the frustration that comes with it, as the song explain, a song writer can be really good with lyrics, he'll never be as good as a writer who write books.
Seems like music is a pyramid and there's always someone above you that you think he's more talented.

That's a thing i like about music, each person can see something different in it, even things that the artist didn't even think about.
This is a great topic btw Kieron.
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jack fe · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 865

I agree that the rape is just part of the exdended metaphor for the music industry, so it's a needed part of the song. If he just mentioned it jokeingly in passing "I got raped" that would be disgusting, but Jeff isn't that stupid (is anyone?).
I also like the idea Dav said that it starts as a dream and ends as a nightmare. And the very end is a conclusion of the whole thing.
I'm going to listen to the song and read the lyrics some more, you've got me thinking.
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numberdan · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 16

I think that song boarders on genius....
.....okay maybe that's a bit strong!

If it is genius, that puts Jeff up there with the likes of Charles Darwin and
Newton, which maybe pushing the boat out a bit far! It is perhaps genius within the confines of indie rock, the whole worth of which Jeff wants Will Oldham to explain to him in that song.

Maybe if Will Oldham (or Will Oldham look-alike) hadn't had done what he does to Jeff at the end of the song but said, "yes, being an Indie Rock legend is truely worth all the sacrifices you have made", then we'd all know for sure that the song is genius? But then where's the fun in that!

I think only someone a bit pompous and self important could say for sure that indie rock is really important/not important. These are two qualities I would not associate with Jeff based on his songs (having never met him!); I think that's maybe why I like him/the song so much!!

As for Will Oldham (or Will Oldham look-alike) literally raping Jeff, I don't think that actually happened!! As for using rape as a metaphor, I can see how it might be inapproprate, but since Jeff uses it at the culimination of such a well told story, I don't mind. I think the use of it in the song underlines something which we've all witnessed on the message board, and that's Jeff deep felt conviction not to f#*k over his fans (see Archives thread), and possibly his outrage at artists that do (with their big-buck shows, throughout which they gaze enigmatically at their over-awed admirers through rock-star sunglasses).

As Jeff does on many of his other songs (e.g. Champion Jim, Chelsea Hotel, Heavy Heart) he manages to turn a bad situation (this one possibly his worst situation yet!) into something incredibly heartening. Lying on the train tracks he manages to find a connection between the Horror he's just suffered and the experiences which drive the activites of artists. As he says, it may be "a terrible analogy", but it helped him get back on his feet, and thats what's important (at least to those of us who like
his stuff!)!

Thanks to anyone that reads all of this!!!!!

chocabloc · Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 149 Location: various

I don't see the rape as necessarily part of the metaphor. The metaphor involves non-will oldham calling artists pussies, since they get f*cked by the stronger folk in society. If anyone wants to take offence, I would say they should take offence at the way that the metaphor links artists with femininity, and particularly that this femininity is assumed to be weaker and destined to be dominated by 'dicks.' that could be seen as a bit sexist, but as jeff and numberdan say, 'it a terrible analogy.'

as for the rape, it might be a bit flippant i suppose. but really, how could anyone be offended at the notion of bpb raping jeff? its just a farcical way to end the narrative and link to the pussy metaphor. it certainly doesn't glorify, normalise or justify male rape. i don't even think it trivialises it; its too surreal for that.

Dav · Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject:

Seems like everyone get the lyrics in a different way.
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jefflewis · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 1512

Hi all!
I'm not going to give an "official" interpretation of the events in the song, but I agree that rape is a loaded topic and any light-hearted use of it in songs or stories etc is treading on thin ice as far as poor taste and cheap shock effect (which is not to say it can't be done if the artist wants to, and done well, but that's subjective to the beholder). The rape in my Williamsburg Will Oldham song happens because of Will's song "A Sucker's Evening" on the Palace album "Arise Therefore". In "A Sucker's Evening" Will sings something like:

Make a noise
Crack a glass
I'll hold his arms
You fuck him.
Fuck him with something.
The fuck,
He deserves it.

It's a really dark, creepy and great song, actually it's the first Will Oldham song I ever liked after trying to "get" his stuff for a while. This was the first song where his music made sense to me; the other songs I had heard before didn't impress me. In fact for a while this was the only song of his I liked, but after a while I really got into a lot of his stuff. So for me this is an important Will Oldham song. For somebody hearing my "Williamsburg Will Oldham Horror" song who has NOT heard Will's "A Sucker's Evening" I agree that including rape in my song really must seem especially unnecessary and distasteful! But for people who know Will's song it makes a lot more sense.
Jeff

numberdan · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 16

Thanks Jeff!

Knowing that you are a fan of Will Oldham puts a slightly different slant of my own interpretation of the song. Prior to that I thought I detected some kind of resentment toward Will Oldham from you. It seems more now (although you do say something in the song along the lines that you will come to enjoy Will Oldham's stuff, should you give it sufficient opportunity.....) you're kind of engaging with a character/him/a part of him portrayed in a song, in which case (as suggested in the first post of the thread), the song is complementary to him, if in a slightly twisted way (the kind of way maybe Will Oldham himself might actually dig!).

I think part of my previous view on the lyrics was coloured by the fact that I'm yet to come to appreciate fully the songs of Will Oldham. Maybe I need to hear A Suckers Evening? At the minute I do find a lot of what he does, the whole Prince of Darkness thing a bit over blown or something, and the structure of his songs somehow a bit constrained, like he's trapped by his own image or something. He does have his warm moments though.

Man, this message board is sooooo cool!!

Nice one and thank you (was it Nick/Will Oldham and Dav??) to who ever set it up!!!!

jefflewis · Joined: 21 Nov 2005 Posts: 1512

I still don't know if I'd call myself a Will Oldham "fan"... Let's just say that it took me a while to figure out what mental angle I should be listening to his music from, I couldn't understand what was supposed to be so great about him, at first he just sounded to me like a bad open mic singer trying to sound like Neil Young or the Grateful Dead but without having any meaningful lyrics. But now I really like and appreciate what Will does, and certainly appreciate his seeming disregard for doing what people expect him to do.

numberdan · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 16

One thing that springs to mind, again in relation to Will Oldham, is the possible suggestion within the song that he's a "dick" not a "pussy" i.e. an artist. Despite the humour within this (I laughed just typing; how on earth does Jeff sing that!). I can't help but think it's a case of truth spoken in jest?

It seems whilst Jeff is questioning his own worth in the song, he's also questioning the merit of Will Oldham's creative output and his status as an influential indie rock musician. The possible conclusion of the song is Jeff saying, OK Bonnie Prince Billie, you've got the money, fans and critical acclaim , but ultimately, you're a "dick" not an artist?

Sorry to be like a tabloid journalist with all these questions! I think they're more rhetorical than anything else, so I don't expect any answers (but Jeff, it's great to hear any comments you are willing to make!)! As ever with these things, it's all just subjective opinion and my own take on it blah, blah...... reading into the song is a bit like interpreting a dream and we all bring something of our unobjective selves to the symposium table.

Ultimately, for me, the reason I like the song isn't down to whatever Jeff might think about Will Oldham, but the way he expresses himself throughout it. Particularly his ability to communitcate the (nightmare-ish, possibly subconscious) thought processes going on in his head in a way which sounds truthful and honest to me, and as a result is very entertaining, powerful and couragious.

hamlet · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 456

I just thought the song was saying that ones who wind up on top are the fuckers, while the sensitive souls wind up getting fucked as if there were a pecking order, like there is in the animal kingdom. (That includes us, right?) A dominant primate always emerges, he gets the territory and the women and is called the alpha male. Some animals ( I think I read it was wolves) even turn their butts to the alpha male to placate him. Woody Allen invented the Omega male, the lowest male in the pecking (or pecker) order. Yet through his brains and artistic creativity he was anything but that. In the Will Oldham song Jeff sees himself a less strong male as a pussy (female) to be impregnated (with ideas?) by this anal rape who will maybe give birth to something good. All this is pure imagination, strikes me as a funny metaphor for being in a world of power inequality,and should not be taken so seriously. Thanks to Jeff for his explanation and it will send me looking for "A Sucker's Evening." I tried to get into Will Oldham but couldn't find any songs I liked.

hamlet · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 456

I just found 3 different versions of A Sucker's Evening. In the soft folky version which Jeff quotes it seems to be "my lady" who does the fucking, while he, the narrator, holds the fuckee's arms. The narrator himself is at first too fearful of getting hurt. In the second version, likewise. But in the third most rocked out , high energy version he says "You hold his arms , I'll fuck him." This seems to be some kind of vengeance rather than rape just to assert power. It's a brave nasty song but more pointless than Jeff's so not nearly as good.

numberdan · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 16

I think you're right about not taking it so seriously..... I think I'm in definite danger of analysing the fun out of the song!!!

Kieron · Joined: 02 Dec 2005 Posts: 909 Location: Edinburgh

I think as original author of this thread, I must say some more. My female friend who heard this and disagreed with the metaphorical use of rape in the first instance, read these comments and still had the same impassioned response. I think that may have a lot to do with not being an immediate Jeff Lewis fan, mostly because this was one of the first songs she heard. She's heard the 'most rocked out' version (thanks, for that, Hamlet) by Will Oldham, which did not impress at all. So an argument that rests on the strength that it was a kind of response to Will's song makes it just as difficult to hold. That's not to say her opinions are my own. I really like the song, and think the metaphor used is very well done. But it does highlight the problem that this song could pose -- i.e. that someone who is not a fan or familiar with Jeff may see it as a kind of glamorisation of rape, and be put off from Jeff's work in the future. I personally find that very unfortunate becasue, really, it is a song that is designed to highlight the inequality that exsists with the music industry, and most likely in life in gereral (is it perhaps a political song?). Like I said, my friend's opnions are not my own, but like me appreciating Jeff's lyrics, I also appreciate her's completely and wholey.

Thank you all, for your responses.

chocabloc · Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 149 Location: various

Of course, will oldham also beats jeff unconscious at the end of the song. It's interesting that your friend had such an impassioned response specifically to the male rape aspect, but apparently wasn't that offended by being physically assaulted and left for dead on live train tracks. Attempted murder isn't a bowl of cherries either, but in the song it is so absurd and surreal, that it can't be seen as a comment on the act itself, but as part of a wider parable. Sorry, that reads like quite a smart-arse reply, but thats the way i see it.