Jeff Lewis Forum Index
$1.75 US
$1.95 CAN
Jeff Lewis
message board
 
  FAQ     Search     Memberlist     Usergroups     Register  
  Profile     Log in to check your private messages     Log in  

Syd Barrett - Candy and a Currant Bun

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Jeff Lewis Forum Index -> About anything
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dazmann



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:12 am    Post subject: Syd Barrett - Candy and a Currant Bun Reply with quote

I just recognized that the riff in Pink Floyd's Candy and a Currant Bun (lyrics by Syd) is taken from Howling Wolf's Smokestack Lightning. Its nice to make these kind of connections.

I knew Syd was a big blues fan (and the name Pink Floyd is taken from 2 blue musicians names) so it shouldn't be too surprising.

The same riff is also used in the 1971 John Lennon/Elastic Oz Band track "Do The Oz". Quite a heavy track- and a Phil Spector production too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jefflewis



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1485

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, never noticed that connection, most bands of the era did things that were either covers of Smokestack Lightning or similar repeating guitar riffs, but in Candy and a Current Bun it's not the guitar but the vocal melody that seems to match.
And I'm sure you probably know the Floyd song was originally "Let's Roll Another One." But I never heard this recording of it, is this for real?? I'm almost suspicious it's a fake but it could be real - the unreleased early version as "Let's Roll Another One," many elements of the recording are the same as Candy & a Current Bun but there's some different editing and other stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt1NF2CNTh8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jefflewis



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1485

PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And wow, I really never heard this BBC live 1967 version of Scream Thy Last Scream!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3IfN3BbJLI
It's different from the usual bootlegged studio outtake version, it has no sped-up backing vocals.
I also never thought about the way the solo section features a speed-up which sounds particularly similar to the kind of speeding-up they would do in Set the Controls For the Heart of the Sun, so that is obviously an idea they were trying at that time (apparently the studio versions of Scream and Set the Controls were recorded on or around the same day in 1967). This live BBC version of Scream Thy Last Scream has a speed-up section that sounds, to my ears, pretty similar to the Set the Controls speed-up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dazmann



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the links - the link to "Scream Thy Last Scream" sounds even better than on the official release on the Pink Floyd Early Years boxset.
The Candy and Currant Bun could be a fake, its sounds almost too good to be true. It must have been sourced from a very good quality recording, not an acetate. There does sound like some cross-mixing towards the end, possibly indicating that it mixes fake and genuine versions. Who knows.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dazmann



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew Pink Floyd covered Slim Harpo's "I'm a King Bee". This track also appears on their official Early Years boxset. His songs were widely covered in the sixties by the Rolling Stones, Yardbirds etc.

I was listening to a collection of Slim's work and I was surprised hear the close similarity between his 1959 track "Something Inside Me" and the Beatles (George Harrison) song "For You Blue" from the Let It be album (1969/70).

All Beatles songs have been analysed to death, but I've never before read about the similarity between these two songs. As well as the guitar parts the lyrics are also very similar - they're both about why a girl is loved. Slim's lyrics are set in the negative sense (I don't know why I wants to love you) whereas Harrison's are positive (Because your're sweet and lovely girl I love you) which enhances the emotional feel of the song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-nZ8o53vo
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jefflewis



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1485

PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always fun to make those sorts of discoveries, or at least guesses. I feel like the Rolling Stones album Out of Our Heads (the American version) released in the USA in 1965 had some impact on the germination of the first Velvet Underground album, I hear similarities from "Satisfaction" to "Heron" (2-chord songs that go back and forth from slow to fast) and from "Play With Fire" to "Venus in Furs" (something about the general atmosphere and restrained threat in the pacing, the use of a sort of old English ballad song-type with a modern sense of threat and drama) and obviously from "Hitch Hike" to "There She Goes."
But this sort of game goes on forever!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dazmann



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The influences behind VU-songs is another great topic.

Yes, I'd noticed the same guitar lick from "Hitch Hitch" was re-used in "There She Goes Again". I'd only heard the original Marvin Gaye version, I didn't realise the Stones had covered it too.

The other obvious VU "lift" that comes to mind is Crimson and Clover by Tommy James and the Shondells from 1968, the main guitar part re-appears in "Sweet Jane" from Loaded (1969).

I reckon Lou Reed was influenced by a lot by early doo-wop tracks, but it'd need an expert on doo-wop and the VU recorded works to determine direct influences. I did notice that the songwriting credits to "Foggy Notion" on the Bootleg Series Volume 1 (The Quine Tapes) added an extra song-writing credit to Hy Weiss.
He was active on the NY music scene in the 1950/60s but the connection with the VU is unclear. I read that it was added to settle a legal case possibly because Lou sings "Sally Mae, Sally Mae" in the refrain to the song.
I did a search on youtube and there are possible candidates (The Corvairs - Hey, Sally Mae (1962) which is doo-wop, but a better candidate might be Sally Mae by Casanova Jr. (1958) but that's more Little Richard style rock n' roll.)

Do you know of any other direct influences in VU songs?

Regarding the other songs you mentioned, I guess any similarity between Heroin and Satisfaction must have been a late addition, because Heroin was written beforehand, I think Lou had written it well before it was released. The others (Play With Fire/Venus In Furs) are stylistically similar but this might just be because of the folk-rock music that was popular at the time.


Last edited by dazmann on Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:47 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jefflewis



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1485

PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, you may be right... I did once do an extensive timeline research to see if there's any way Lou might have heard Satisfaction before writing Heroin but the dates just don't line up, even the earliest release of Satisfaction as a single or in live performances would have been a little later in 1965 from the earliest known date of Lou writing Heroin... still, it did take the Velvets a while before there was a rock band version of Heroin, so the Stones could still have been a factor as an influence on the sound of it at that point. Or maybe both Lou and the Stones were being influenced by some different earlier song that again has structural similarities.
In the book "Astral Weeks" about the Boston music scene circa 1968 (of which the Velvets were a regular visitor) there's some really interesting info about a specific spiritual influence on Lou that crops up in a few songs but I lost my copy of that book on a tour a couple years ago so I can't reference it with confidence!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dazmann



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Jeff. I reckon its this book: "Astral Weeks: A Secret History of 1968" by Ryan H. Walsh. It sounds like my kind of thing - I'll check it out. I've enjoyed Gerard deGroot's book on this period and also those of Barry Miles.

About a year ago, during the 1st lock-down, I started tracking down and listening to some of the albums of the 60's "Bosstown Sound". The regional US music scenes of NY, Detroit, San Francisco are pretty well known, but not Boston. I must have heard something interesting and then tried to find more.

The best album I discovered was the eponymous 1967 debut by "Ultimate Spinach". (Terrible band name; their original name "Underground Cinema" is much better). It contains one of the only contemporary tracks (that I'm aware of) with vocals that are delivered like Nico from the first VU album. Its called "(Ballad Of) The Hip Death Goddess". Its 8+ minutes long which I reckon was quite long for the time, based around a repetitive, almost drone-like bass riff. The lyrics are fairly weak, but its a pretty cool track, if you can forgive the spoken-word introduction. Maybe you've heard it?

Willie Alexander is a Boston musician whose name pops up quite often during this period, he's the same guy who replaced Lou Reed when he left the VU.

Another Boston band from the time was Chamaeleon Church which featured Chevy Chase, who become famous as a comedian in the following decades. Their album is pretty forgettable though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jefflewis



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1485

PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So glad to hear somebody getting into that Boston 60s stuff!
I discovered Ultimate Spinach in the late 90s, first I got a copy of that first LP which I used to play a lot on my college radio show around 1996-1997... it was one of the coolest and strangest 60s psychedelic unknown albums I'd ever been able to find at that point, and of course I loved the crazy band name too! I thought the Hip Death Goddess song was a way of insulting or criticizing Nico, talking about how cruel and heartless and hip and cold she seemed, but presented as if it was her singing about herself, in her cold way.
The 2nd Ultimate Spinach album is maybe even better than the first... I found a copy for $10 the first time I was record shopping in Portland Oregon, on a road trip in 1997... it has less sound-effects but the songs are able to be just as psychedelic even without the effects, another good example of crazy 60s acid rock, even if people can easily hear it as a ridiculous joke, I enjoy taking it all seriously.
The 3rd Ultimate Spinach album I got at a record shop in Indianapolis on a road trip with my brother around 2002 if i remember correctly, and it's the standard sort of "back to roots" boring rock album that a lot of psychedelic bands started to make around 1969 (same thing happened to the Chocolate Watch Band, the Electric Prunes, the Blues Magoos, HP Lovecraft, and countless others... they all tried to make a "normal" album when the style of psychedelia was out of style, and all those "normal" albums are usually quite bad and boring! Tho i still find them interesting in their own ways.).
I also have that digital-released Ultimate Spinach live recording from 1967 (I think they might technically still have been known as Underground Cinema at that time? I don't know), it's called Live at the Unicorn and it's okay, not super special but kind of interesting to hear, just as a curious fan.
Among the other Boston 60s bands that I've got are the Beacon Street Union, their first album has some really cool and interesting tracks, if you're into 60s acid rock... then their second album "The Clown Died in Marvin Gardens" is stupider, mostly bad, but still a couple of weird or cool moments that would be worth hearing if you're into that kind of stuff. I think they had a third album with a different band name but I've never got a copy.
Then there's the great album "Flashes" by the Boston band Ill Wind, that's really a high quality 60s acid rock album. It's a bit more serious than the Ultimate Spinach stuff, more like a real band than a weird joke that you'd laugh at. It's not as weird but it's really much better than the Beacon Street Union stuff. I have it on LP but the digital release comes with SO many bonus tracks I had to get that too, and the bonus tracks are really good, early demos and stuff, it shows they really were a good band with good material.
I've never heard that Chamaeleon Church album you mention.
Oh you know what's a freakin' GREAT Boston album is the band "Listening", I think it's 1968, on the Vanguard label, self-titled album, I am a big fan of that record. It is too much of an expensive rare collector item for me to own the vinyl, but I had a digital version of it and I have listened to it many many times. It's not acid rock, it's more like a sort of jazz rock fusion thing, maybe a bit like Traffic or Santana, but really unique and hard to compare to other bands, and really good.

I don't know if the Rockin' Ramrods were from Boston? That's a little bit earlier... like 1964-1967 period... and they only had singles, never a full album... but there are some great tracks, and young Jonathan Richman was a fan... you can really hear that the Rockin'Ramrods song "She Lied" is obviously an influence on the Modern Lovers song "She Cracked."

The Remains were a 60s Boston-area band, some people seem to love that album but I find it a bit disappointing... one really good song (Don't Look Back) and then the rest of it is not super great to my ears, not very memorable. THough there's some really cool footage of them playing Diddy Wah Diddy on a 60s TV show and when I watch the main guy play and sing it is much cooler to me, than just hearing it. I love the way he moves and grooves.

I don't think the Rising Storm were from Boston, maybe somewhere else in Massachusetts, but their rare 1967 album "Calm Before" is truly a classic of rare 60s vibes, if you're into that sort of thing, that album has quite a lot of magic. An original copy might cost you about $2,000 so just get the digital! : D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dazmann



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the recommendation of the 1968 - Astral Weeks book. I read it back in the summer.
I'd never heard about Mel Lyman and the Fort Hill Community before. They've been eclipsed in popular culture by the Manson family. Cults never well, or so it seems.
I was also intrigued to read about the writings of the esoteric astrologer, Alice Bailey, influencing Lou Reed's songwriting.
Even so, having read about the making of Van Morrison's Astral Weeks, I had another listen and my opinion of the album still didn't really change. I've heard it plenty of times but try-as-I-might apart from Madame George, I just don't understand its appeal.
The same goes for Joni Mitchell. Apart from a few early songs I find her later work baffling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jefflewis



Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1485

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've never really gotten into Van Morrison or Joni Mitchell, but now I've grown to appreciate the Astral Weeks album, quite a nice listen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Jeff Lewis Forum Index -> About anything
 
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group